[00:00:00] Speaker A: As I grew up, I understood that love is not a free choice. There were conditions, there were stakes, there were consequences.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Hello, this is Joseph Scholz, and welcome to the Deep Culture podcast, where we explore culture and the sciences of mind. And I am here with Leah. It's so great to have you co hosting with me today.
[00:00:34] Speaker C: It's good to be here, and I'm excited about the episode.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: So, Leah, the title of today's episode is Love Across Cultures.
Relationships between People with Different Cultural Backgrounds. And this was a topic that you suggested?
[00:00:50] Speaker C: Yes, it's an important topic to me. I'm in an intercultural relationship, and I have an Instagram account where I post about cultural differences, and people have DMed me and asked if I can share about intercultural relationships.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Well, I look forward to getting into that, but we have to ask, is a relationship with someone from a different cultural background really that different? Because people might say, well, you know, love is the same all over the world, right?
[00:01:18] Speaker C: And falling in love is something that people all over the world do, but that's not the end of the story, and that's when the relationship starts.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: And that's cultural, because our psychology is shaped by our culture, how we judge things, our sense of self, how we communicate.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: Right. Communication is a great example. Communication is cultural. Our values are cultural. Gender roles are cultural. Family relations are cultural. And raising children is cultural. Emotion is cultural. Sex is cultural.
And that means you can't just manage your relationship on autopilot because you're going to hit some bumps, often when you least expect it.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: So in this episode, we'll hear stories about the speed bumps in intercultural relationships, the rewards, unexpected challenges, and how building shared understanding is always a work in progress.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: And that brings us to part one. Love conquers all.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Okay, so let's start to dig a bit more into this basic question. Is love the same all over the world? Because you find love stories everywhere and throughout history. Fairy tales, Arabian Nights, Romeo and Juliet, and these days, of course, pop music, Hollywood, Bollywood.
[00:02:54] Speaker C: So, yes, in a way, love is universal. But a relationship with someone from down the street is not the same as with someone from another country or culture.
In an intercultural relationship, things are different, which can be exciting. But things can be unexpectedly difficult, too. The novelty and the challenges are two sides of the same coin. High risk, high return.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's how it was for me when I was living in Zacatecas in Mexico, I met someone. Angeles. It was exciting. Zacatecas is this beautiful colonial city. It has plazas and cobblestone streets and we were only speaking Spanish. I even serenaded her outside of her apartment.
[00:03:37] Speaker C: Oh, that sounds romantic. I met my husband, Mael, while we were students. He was from Peru. He was quiet, someone who kept a few close friends. But then we went to Peru and he had this huge circle of family and friends who were all waiting for him. They were expecting him to sing and play the guitar all night like he was a different person. I didn't expect that.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: So we both had guitar playing experiences in Latin America.
Well, for me, it was an adventure being with Angeles. And difference can be attractive. And that's something that podcast team member Emre seven experienced with his wife. Let's listen.
[00:04:19] Speaker D: My wife Helvina and I are very comfortable together and share a lot. I was raised in Turkey and she's a Crimean Tatar, an ethnically Turkic minority indigenous to the Crimean Peninsula. But there's a freshness, a vibe of novelty in every aspect of my life. Because of our different backgrounds. Elvina was raised with the Russian influence mentality in Uzbekistan and Ukraine. She's a native speaker of crime in Tatar, which is similar to Turkish, as well as Russian and Ukrainian. She's also fluent in English and Turkish. She holds four different passports from Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Russian Federation and Turkey. So being with Elvina has opened up totally new worlds for me. Not just observing cultural difference, but living it. It is truly a transformative experience.
Elvina and I want security for our daughter and Mira. But I also hope that having parents that come from different worlds will expand her horizons, as it did for me.
[00:05:33] Speaker C: I love how Ember says that his relationship is transformative, and being with someone does open up new worlds. That's the reward of love across cultures, right?
[00:05:44] Speaker B: It has been for me. I've had romantic relationships in Japan and in France. And maybe it sounds really stereotypical, but I remember sitting in a cafe in Paris with my French girlfriend thinking, wow, this is so cool.
[00:06:01] Speaker C: But the question is, what happens next? How do we manage the differences that we find?
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Well, some people might quote the Beatles, you know, all you need is love. Or maybe the Roman poet Virgil, omnia vincit amor, meaning love conquers all. But that's just not true.
[00:06:22] Speaker C: Falling in love is the easy part, the fun part. But as time goes on, things catch you off guard, especially when you have love across cultures. You talked about this in episode 44. You were speaking about your girlfriend in Mexico, Angeles. Let's listen back.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: Yes. I remember once when I was living in Zacatecas, Mexico, and I started going out with a woman that I met there. And on One of our first dates, we were walking down the sidewalk together, and she turned and gave me this funny look and said, apocomedas vendiendo, which literally means something like, so what are you selling me? And I had no idea what she was talking about. I was on her left, next to the building, but she expected me to be on the right between her and the street, to be her protector in some way. I guess it was what she expected of a gentleman. And I guess, well, I guess I failed the test.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Wow. You failed the test?
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Yeah. She gave me this look like, do I have to spell it out? And at first I didn't even understand, and it seemed a bit silly, but there I was in Mexico, and so I'm guessing, well, that's normal here. And I was just trying to keep up.
[00:07:51] Speaker C: And these things always happen. Culture catches you off guard.
[00:07:55] Speaker B: Well, I wasn't thinking about that at the time, but even if I had been, I could not have predicted what cultural differences would come up.
[00:08:05] Speaker C: And that's something our team member Sanne Bosma has experienced.
[00:08:12] Speaker E: I grew up in the Netherlands, and my husband Armen grew up in Armenia. I knew I was starting an intercultural relationship, so I expected that we would have different ideas about some things, like gender roles that seemed obviously related to culture.
However, there were other things that I was not prepared for and at the time did not know anything about. For example, differences in direct or indirect communication or what it means to raise your voice in a dispute.
These things did catch me off guard.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: So Sana was anticipating cultural differences about certain things, but there were others that surprised her.
[00:09:08] Speaker C: I can totally relate to that. I thought my husband and I might feel differently about time, but it still took me by surprise. For example, he'd say over the phone, I'm almost there. So I would think he was just around the corner. So I'd go outside and wait. But in reality, he was probably just leaving. So I'm waiting out in the cold, thinking he should just have told me.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Well, I remember waiting in front of a movie theater for Angeles, getting irritated because I didn't want to miss the beginning of the movie. But then when she got there, she said, well, if you were worried about missing the beginning, why didn't you go in?
Anyway, back to your story. So you were literally waiting in the cold. So how was that for you?
[00:09:54] Speaker C: Well, I'm Norwegian. For me, accurate information is the point of communication, whereas my husband was trying to communicate his earnest desire to arrive as quickly as possible.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: So you both had good intentions, but it was still irritating.
[00:10:12] Speaker C: Well, it annoyed me that the information he provided wasn't accurate. I saw no value in him saying he was almost there when he wasn't.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: Right.
Let's just pause and think about the psychology of cultural difference here and why it is that we can't anticipate these differences.
[00:10:33] Speaker C: And this relates to the way our mind works because we rely so much on unconscious habits. Basically, we operate on autopilot. You were walking down the street with Angelis on autopilot, but her autopilot expected you to be walking on the other side. And maybe she was irritated, which was also an autopilot reaction, an intuitive judgment.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: And the autopilot we're talking about. Specialists use a whole bunch of terminology to talk about it. The cognitive unconscious, the adaptive unconscious, the new unconscious, the X system. Dual processing models of cognition. Probably the best known is fast thinking. On this podcast, we call it the intuitive mind.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: Basically, we react to the world based on the patterns from our previous experience. It's called predictive processing.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: Our intuitive mind expects one thing and gets another.
Suddenly, my girlfriend is offended because of.
[00:11:34] Speaker C: Where I'm walking, or I am annoyed when my partner says, I'm almost there, but it's actually quite a distance away.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: So that means that if you're in an intercultural relationship, you have to expect your autopilot to trip you up sometimes.
[00:11:52] Speaker C: Also, you're not just learning something about your partner. You can become more aware of your own cultural habits, your reactions, your judgments.
[00:12:02] Speaker B: And we have to learn to spot cultural patterns, things we normally do out of habit, including how we communicate.
[00:12:11] Speaker C: And that's a huge issue because communication styles differ across cultures. Let's listen back to part of episode 49 where Sanne and Arman talk about this.
[00:12:23] Speaker E: Another example with my partner and his family is about something very small yet meaningful. How do you ask someone to get something for you, such as the remote or a plate? In the beginning of the relationship, I was quite shocked by the way I would be asked to get something in Dutch. It was like, get me the remote, bring me a plate. In Dutch, this is often seen as very rude, since there is no would you please? Or could you please add it? And it would be a question rather than a statement. It felt very disrespectful to me.
[00:12:58] Speaker F: In Armenia, we use actually two ways of style, the formal and the informal. The formal style of communication, it's most mostly done when you meet people for the first time, or in a formal setting or with your teacher. But when the relationship evolves, then you are friends or your family or you are husband and wife, then the communication styles changes. In informal and in informal way. You are much directly in Armenia. You don't use words, names. You just ask the people because you know them. And they can also use the same way to communicate with you.
And you don't be offended. And it's very trustful, very lovable, very easy. You just ask what you want. Yeah, that's trust.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Wow. You can really hear how both Sanne and our men find their own cultural patterns.
[00:14:10] Speaker C: Normal, I relate to this. It's similar in Norway. Saying something like hang up your jacket feels disrespectful. And for my husband too, it's the opposite. The people you're close to, you are direct.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: But even when you recognize it's cultural, it doesn't stop us from reacting. Right.
[00:14:31] Speaker C: Right. And so let's get back to the question we started with. Is love the same everywhere around the world?
[00:14:39] Speaker B: And the answer is love might be, but relationships aren't. And intercultural relationships are hard work. Which brings us to part two. Is love enough?
So, Leah, people get in touch with you on Instagram about intercultural relationships. What kind of things do you hear?
[00:15:10] Speaker C: Well, there are stories about how people met romance, but also people wanting advice.
But it's not always a failure of communication. The fact is there are often challenges that are beyond our control.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: One of them is that there can be a power imbalance. Life isn't always a level playing field for both partners. And this is something that Kasia, a first time contributor, experienced. Let's listen.
[00:15:40] Speaker G: I am Polish, but I married a German man and spent 13 years in Germany.
That means my husband was local and I was the foreigner.
When I first moved there, I already had a master's degree in European studies.
I felt proud and optimistic about the future, but it was difficult for me to find a job with a degree from a Polish university.
At the job center, they told me either to get a German university degree or to just take any job I could get.
They simply ignored my qualifications and ambitions.
I felt powerless and not taken seriously.
A poor disregarded foreigner.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Well, I'm happy to report that Kassia didn't give up and she got a job at a consulting company that valued her ability to learn.
[00:16:56] Speaker C: But one reality that people don't talk about is that not every story like this has a happy ending.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: That's true. In Japan, for example, the divorce rate for international couples is significantly higher than for jetpack Japanese born couples.
[00:17:12] Speaker C: And Kasia shared her experience about these challenges.
[00:17:18] Speaker G: In the end, my first marriage broke up because of different ideas about family.
My husband was from the former East Germany, but expected me to stay home and only work part time when we had children. This role was not acceptable to me.
Unfortunately, we didn't discuss this before we got married.
I assumed I would continue my career without taking long breaks.
But his background and expectations were different.
All this put tremendous strain on our marriage.
Fortunately, now I'm remarried and living happily in Switzerland, again with a German husband.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Well, I am glad to know that Kassia is doing well. But what strikes me is all the different things that can put pressure on an intercultural relationship.
[00:18:31] Speaker C: Something else that's often beyond our control is how families will react. Will they approve or not? Will they get along or not? Will there be tension, rejection?
[00:18:43] Speaker B: And this is something that Emre has experience with.
[00:18:49] Speaker D: Elvina and I face challenges due to our different backgrounds. Our family is worried about the barriers we might face. We had to convince them that our love was not a passing whim or summertime romance of two youngsters, but a conscious decision by two grown ups.
One of the first questions my family asked was she's Muslim, right? When I said yes, they became less concerned about the language she speaks or the country she comes from.
We were two individuals in love. But for my family and in many places in the world, love is not just a question of personal choice.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: You know, I'm from the United States and in the US we almost always think of love as something that's between two individuals, but. But that's just not how it works in many places.
[00:19:52] Speaker C: And the reality is that many people in the world face huge barriers because of family or social pressure. As Sushita Rai tells us.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: In India we often say that you don't marry a person, you marry a family, sometimes a community, even a village.
My parents had a love marriage. They met at the school where they both taught.
As a child, I enjoyed when the topic came up in family gatherings. My mother would blush while my father sat stoically amid the laughter and joking.
It was much later that I realized that my parents stories stood out simply as a love story. A story of two individuals.
In their story, there was no family, no background, no community.
Just two people.
In a society where life is deeply enmeshed, individual choice is often seen as selfish, indulgent, immoral even.
It is a weakness of character, a betrayal of the collective.
When I was a teenager, I remember my uncle casually telling my sister and me that we could choose any life partner as long as they were not Muslim or Bihari As I grew up, I understood that love is not a free choice. There were conditions there, mistakes.
There were consequences.
One day my mother announced that there was a new teacher in her school.
A Muslim woman she didn't fail to mention, but really nice and friendly.
She had converted to Islam after her marriage and was disowned by her upper caste Hindu family.
She and her husband had been married for more than 10 years. They had looked for opportunity in different cities, had two sons in school, and through all of this, she had no contact with her family.
How did she make her choice to be with the love of her life?
How did she feel about the price that she paid, giving up all ties with her family, all connections with the world she grew up in?
Did she remember a warm mother, A stoic father, A sibling that was her partner in crime?
Did she miss her favorite corner in the house, A hot dish that her family shared? A joke that never got old?
Did her family remember her? Did they love her?
Would she ever know?
This is not a single story. It is part of the larger, darker narrative of hostility, ostracization and violence that many couples in India face. If you happen to love someone from a quote unquote wrong community.
If love is a choice, then for many Indians it comes at a heavy price.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Honestly, this is really hard for me to relate to, but I do know that it's the reality for many people and I really appreciate Ichita sharing this with us.
[00:23:45] Speaker C: It is really humbling to think of the price that some people pay for the privilege of loving someone of their choice.
It's a good thing to keep in mind when we hit bumps on our journey.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: And that brings us to part three, Making love work.
Leah, you mentioned earlier that on Instagram people have asked you for advice about.
[00:24:22] Speaker C: Their relationships, which actually makes me uncomfortable. I have no easy answers.
I've just learned that things are interconnected. You're not just falling in love with an individual.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: So in your case, you're not just married to someone from Peru, you are also navigating his world.
[00:24:43] Speaker C: Right? For example, the first time my husband's family visited us in Norway, they didn't plan much, which I found frustrating. For them, simply making the trip was what mattered most. They hadn't considered where they would stay, what they would do.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: So I guess being with family was the point.
[00:25:03] Speaker C: Exactly. I also relate to the fact that each stage of a relationship has different challenges and they are not always under our control.
When we lived in the Philippines, people found it amusing that I was my husband's boss.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: Yes, how we are perceived is really not in our control. In Japan, for example, I will always be a gaijin, a foreigner. And so what is the most common advice that you have heard from others?
[00:25:31] Speaker C: Well, that communication is important. But the hard part is that differences in communication don't go away. For example, improve people don't easily accept a simple no to certain things. My husband believed he should keep asking me until I said yes, whether it was about offering food or helping me carry something. To be honest, he still does this sometimes. Both my daughter and I get frustrated when he repeatedly asks if we want food. The irony is he's just being kind, and we're the ones getting annoyed.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Well, what impresses me about this is that you can be open about your frustration even as you recognize that he is trying to be kind.
[00:26:11] Speaker C: Well, good communication means being able to have your reaction. But understanding where the other person is coming from, it's not always easy.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: And this is something we heard about from Sanne and our men in episode 49. Let's listen back.
[00:26:30] Speaker E: So when I make an agreement with the children tomorrow, we'll go to a playground. I will take them to the playground. You can tell them you'll go to a playground, but on the day, no, we're not going to the playground. So we'll have the children crying. But he's then explaining, yes, but you know, things can happen, and because of this, this reason where we can't go to the playground, and then they calm down and. And then they understand.
But I would hesitate to do that because I'm thinking. But I promise, and I really like to.
[00:27:02] Speaker F: Yeah, so sometimes when they don't expect to go to the playground, I will take them to the playground. We have nothing to do. The weather is fine and it's not raining. It's very special day. So let's go spontaneous. Spontaneous, but. And also sometimes the beautiful things happen when it's spontaneous.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: This is an amazing conversation, and I really appreciate Sana and Armen sharing their stories with us. For more, definitely go back and check out episode 49, cultural misunderstanding.
Let's dig into this a bit. Sana and Amen communicate differently with their children, but there are cultural differences underneath that. Armen talks about being spontaneous. Sometimes beautiful things happen, right?
[00:27:58] Speaker C: But for Sanna, he's breaking a promise. So it's not enough to say you need good communication, because how you communicate and what you communicate about often reveals hidden cultural difference.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: And these are things we don't know until we're in that situation. Like you don't Discover different ideas about raising children until you have them.
[00:28:20] Speaker C: I feel this with my husband and daughter. You know, raising children is maybe the most serious, important thing we do. It's a life project that parents commit to. And if cultural differences create conflict or lead to a breakup, the consequences are huge.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: And there are significant differences in cultural attitudes towards raising children, but usually we're totally unaware of them. And there is some very important research into this.
[00:28:49] Speaker C: In episode 21, you and Yvonne talked about something called parental ethnotheories. Let's listen back.
[00:28:59] Speaker G: Parental ethnotheries are cultural models that parents hold regarding children, families and themselves as parents. Parental ethno theories are often implicit, taken for granted ideas about a natural or right way to think or act.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: So the basic idea is that parents have beliefs or attitudes about parenting, about how children develop or how they should be raised. And this research compared the attitudes of American, Dutch and Italian parents to see how culture affects the raising of children.
[00:29:43] Speaker C: So this research looked at different assumptions about children's needs, what they need to develop and how to be a good parent. You can hear those differences between Sanne and Armen.
[00:29:54] Speaker B: Armen was saying how beautiful spontaneity is. But in the Netherlands, it's often assumed that children need a regular schedule to develop. This is called the three R's. Here's some more from episode 21.
[00:30:10] Speaker G: And the three R's are Rust, Reinheit and Re Gelmat. And it stands for rest, cleanliness and regularity. And let me explain. Rest is of course of the utmost importance for children. They just need a lot of sleep and it relates to regularity and routine. Waking up, having naps and going to bed at set times. And I could even tell you the ideal bedtimes for children per age.
And then cleanliness. And that's literally related to personal hygiene, to washing and bathing, and of course also at sad times.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: Well, I have to say that sounds really different from what our men is saying.
[00:30:59] Speaker C: This is something I really relate to. My husband and I also have different assumptions about raising children. In Peru, children need to be protected. Parents feel they must keep them safe and minimize risks. Whereas in Norway you want children to try new things out, to climb trees, to get dirty, maybe to fall down. This is how they become resilient. Overprotecting children is seen as potentially harmful.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: And at the risk of being a bit too technical, this all makes sense. Norway scores very high in what is called self expression values most often found in resource rich countries. While Peru scores higher on survival values, where there's an emphasis on security.
[00:31:41] Speaker C: But it is like we said, we didn't really discover these differences until we had children.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: So let's talk about other things that we need to keep in mind. And one is the connection between language, culture and communication style. And that's something we heard from Kasia as well.
[00:32:01] Speaker G: Communicating across different languages and cultures is hard work.
I live in French speaking Switzerland with my current husband.
He speaks English at work and his French is rather limited.
On the other hand, I studied French from the first day we moved to Lausanne.
He watches German news and movies, and whenever I suggest that we watch more French, he either falls asleep or leaves the room.
[00:32:46] Speaker C: Her husband falls asleep or leaves the room. Ouch.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: Well, it's really a reminder that when we learn a foreign language, we are learning a whole different way of relating. And. And that does affect relationships.
[00:33:01] Speaker C: Absolutely. For example, in Peru, people talk constantly and share everything. It's uncommon for someone to need space. So whenever I said I wanted time alone, my husband assumed there was a problem if I told him I wanted time to read or be by myself. He found it frustrating. It just didn't make sense to him. Norwegians have things that glorify calm and quiet. Still, locally, we idolize nature, silence, the experience of being alone in the wilderness.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: So we have all of these differences. And so the question then is, how do we deal with them?
[00:33:40] Speaker C: How we resolve conflict is closely related to how we communicate. So there are cultural differences there as well. And that's something that Sanne has experienced.
[00:33:53] Speaker E: I was certainly not prepared for the differences in dispute resolution we experienced. This has been quite an intense and difficult journey. To be honest. I grew up in a rather reserved environment and this applied to arguments as well. Voices were raised only when we had done something really bad with our men. I was shocked at the beginning by how loud disagreements got and the body language that would go with that. It was entirely new to me.
I wasn't aware of these cultural differences and at first I just assumed the worst. But I have learned, and it's even funny sometimes. When we visited his family, I used to think that they were fighting all the time. They were not.
It's hard to learn new interpretations when emotions run high. It takes a lot of commitment. Talking, asking, believing the good intentions of the other person and also questioning your own assumptions. It takes time and trial and error. And yes, I have also learned to be more expressive, maybe even loud at times. And my partner has learned the opposite.
[00:35:23] Speaker C: I really relate to this. Like we said, intercultural relationships can be high risk. High return differences are difficult the stakes are high, but differences make us grow.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: And so what have you learned about making things work?
[00:35:40] Speaker C: Well, they say communication is important, but it's not that simple. My husband and I used to talk and talk when things came up, but at a certain point that can be exhausting. Like Sanne says, it's trial and error. Over time, you get to know each other's patterns and find different ways to deal with conflict. Sometimes, for example, it's better to pull back.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Yes, I've heard that there are three keys to being a good knowing how to speak up, knowing how to listen, and then knowing when to do.
[00:36:10] Speaker C: Which I like that. And another idea that I like is that good relationships require a pool of shared meaning. And in intercultural relationships, building this common understanding requires more time.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: That's why, like we said at the beginning, people everywhere fall in love.
But intercultural relationships are different, more complex. They challenge you, but that's also what.
[00:36:37] Speaker C: Makes them an adventure. Why love down the street when we can love around the world?
[00:36:44] Speaker B: And I think that's a good place to end this episode. Let's mention our sources. The idea of a pool of shared meaning comes from the book Crucial Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High. If you're interested in survival values and self expression values, check out the World Values Survey and in particular the Englehart Welsall Cultural Map. There's a great visual with different countries.
The research into cultural differences in parenting came from Themes and Variations Parental Ethno Theories in Western Cultures by Harkness and Super.
The Deep Culture Podcast is sponsored by the Japan Intercultural Institute and NPO dedicated to intercultural education and research. I'm the director of JAII and if you are an educator, there are teaching materials to go along with the Deep Culture Podcast. Created by an incredible team of educators from all over the world, they can be used in language classes as well. All free ready to take into the classroom. Just do a web search for the Japan Intercultural Institute or write
[email protected] and Leah, how can people find you on Instagram?
[00:37:58] Speaker C: My account is called Global Bones with.
[00:38:01] Speaker B: A C at the end, so please follow Leah. That's Tohuliana Haruskarnes at Culture Bones. That's with a Z.
Special thanks to Kasia Katarina Gore Sikharts for sharing so openly, as well as Sana Bosma, Emre7, Ishita Rai who co produced this episode. And also thanks to our sound engineer Robinson Fritz, Ikumi Fritz and everyone at ji.
And thanks to you Leah for sharing so much and working on this episode with me. It's been great.
[00:38:34] Speaker C: Thank you. I've enjoyed this.
