Episode 64 - Are you a native speaker?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I've always felt uncomfortable with the idea that being a native speaker necessarily means acquiring a language in early childhood. That would mean that I could never become one. In fact, if that's the criterion, a native speaker is really not something to become in the first place. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Hello, this is Joseph Scholz, and welcome to the Deep Culture Experience where we explore culture and the mind. And I am here, as I often am, with Ishita Rai. Happy to be with you today, Ishita. [00:00:44] Speaker C: Hi, Joseph. It's great to be back in the new year. [00:00:47] Speaker B: So, Ishita, today's episode was inspired by the question, what's your native language? And we were talking about what it means to be a so called native speaker of a language. [00:01:00] Speaker C: This topic is something I relate to personally. I grew up speaking three languages, but sometimes I feel that I don't speak any of them perfectly well. [00:01:11] Speaker B: In my case, I grew up speaking English in the United States, but I live in Japan and I need to use Japanese every day, which is definitely not my native language. And so for cultural bridge people, the idea of the native speaker opens up a kind of Pandora's box. Because the language that you speak and how you speak it, it raises questions like how well do I use this language? Do I fit in? Where is home? How do people perceive me? And people do judge you based on the way you speak. [00:01:46] Speaker C: And language is a really deep part of who we are. For example, I'm a Bengali because I speak Bengali, but I also grew up speaking English and Hindi and they are all part of me. [00:02:03] Speaker B: So in this episode we thought we'd explore what is a native speaker anyway? Can you have more than one native language? Can you ever speak a foreign language like a so called native? [00:02:16] Speaker C: We will look at some research in language acquisition, hear some critiques of native speakerism, and hear how the podcast team members navigate all of this. [00:02:29] Speaker B: And that brings us to part one. What do you mean native? [00:02:43] Speaker C: So let's dig into the term native speaker. And we know some people really don't like the term and we will talk about that. But let's start with a dictionary definition. According to the Cambridge Online Dictionary, a native speaker is, quote, someone who has spoken a particular language since they were a baby, rather than having learned it as a child or adult. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Okay, so fair enough. By that logic, I am a native speaker of English because I grew up in California speaking English and I do speak Japanese, but it's not the same for me as speaking English. [00:03:30] Speaker C: And that's because if you learn a foreign language after childhood, you probably have an accent and Maybe there are words or expressions you don't know. And then there's the cultural background of that language. Like I grew up speaking Bengali, so I know the difference between, let's say, katla and rui. [00:03:55] Speaker B: Okay? So you need to explain that. [00:03:57] Speaker C: Okay? Katla and rui are two river fish that you find in my region of Bengal, very similar, but Bengalis can tell them apart and they can spend hours arguing about that kind of thing. [00:04:12] Speaker B: And so that's also part of being a native speaker sharing this kind of background. [00:04:19] Speaker C: But then there are other terms like mother tongue or first language, or in linguistics, people talk about your L1, but. [00:04:29] Speaker B: We have to say that there are people who just don't like the whole idea of the native speaker. And first of all, the word native reminds some people of talking about the natives, which can sound insulting. [00:04:43] Speaker C: And to be fair, the basic meaning of native is, according to the Oxford Online Dictionary, a person born in a specified place or associated with a place by birth. And that idea that one is native to a place and thus speaks the language is kind of at the root of the challenges for cultural bridge people, because many people are simply not living where they grew up, or they grew up in different places, or they grew up speaking multiple languages. So the idea of the native speaker being tied to a place does not always match. [00:05:34] Speaker B: And then there are other criticisms of the term native speaker as well. One book we found described the term native speaker as, quote, idealized, unattainable, irrelevant and unfair. [00:05:48] Speaker C: And there's a lot that those four words capture. First of all, idealized. So this is a critique that native speakers are by default the best communicators, that the way they speak is the right way. [00:06:05] Speaker B: But it's clearly not that simple. First of all, not every native speaker is a great communicator. Plus there are different dialects and on and on. [00:06:15] Speaker C: And then there's unattainable and irrelevant. The critique here is that we shouldn't use the native speaker as a goal or model for language learning. It's simply not realistic. [00:06:31] Speaker B: And it shouldn't matter if our language use is not exactly like the so called natives. [00:06:37] Speaker C: And finally, unfair, that people use the word native speaker consciously or unconsciously as a way to exclude treating the non natives as foreign or the other. [00:06:54] Speaker B: I've been told in France lots of times, oh, vous a vie impetit accent, vous a doux. In other words, oh, you have a bit of an accent, where are you from? [00:07:02] Speaker C: And it can feel like you have to pass some kind of a native speaker. Test. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. [00:07:11] Speaker C: And that can be frustrating. But here is the thing. Fair or not, whether we agree with terminology or not, cultural bridge, people have to navigate different language worlds. That's just reality. [00:07:31] Speaker B: Well, let's start with that reality for you. You have said that you don't really know what your native language is. [00:07:38] Speaker C: Well, my parents are both native Bengali speaker and I grew up in a Bengali speaking household. So you can say it's my mother tongue. But then I lived on a school campus where everyone spoke English. I spoke English before I could read or write in any language. That's what I spoke with my friends and the auntie upstairs. And my schooling and university was in English. I worked professionally in English, so I'm at home in English too. [00:08:15] Speaker B: So I suppose the question some people would ask is, are you equally at home in Bengali and English? [00:08:21] Speaker C: And that's a fair question, but it also raises a fundamental problem with the term native speaker. Being at home in a language isn't all or nothing. Like I'm at home in Bengali with my family, but if I have to add numbers in my head, I'm actually more at home in English. [00:08:42] Speaker B: Well, and that feels like an important point. Being a native speaker is not a single thing. It can mean different things. Like one part is how you speak a language, how you use it, but then there's how you feel in that language and also how people perceive you. [00:08:58] Speaker C: And for some cultural bridge people, those different things can get pretty complicated. And that's something podcast team member Hashini Madrasinghe has experience with. Lets listen. [00:09:15] Speaker D: I grew up in Sri Lanka speaking Sinhale, then moved to Italy when I was 10. I learned Italian naturalistically and sound completely Italian, but people sometimes find that strange because I don't look typically Italian. So what's my native language? I could say that I'm a native Sinhala speaker and a native speaker of Italian. And yet I often feel like I'm a master of no language. Sometimes I completely forget a word or a phrase in all the languages that I speak. So I wonder, am I a native speaker in all my languages or somehow native in none? In the end, I think you can theoretically have more than one native language. But on an emotional level, you often experience doubt. Doubt from people who don't quite accept you and doubt about limitations you carry within yourself. [00:10:25] Speaker C: Hashini's experience really resonates with me, especially this feeling of doubt. By almost any measure, I am a native speaker of Bengali, but I don't always feel at ease. For example, my Bengali is not the sophisticated Kolkata Bengali, but it's also not the local Bengali of my father's village. And people notice that kind of thing. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Well, and it feels complicated for Hassini too. She speaks Italian like anyone raised in Italy, like a so called native. She learned that as a child. But that doesn't automatically make her feel accepted. [00:11:09] Speaker C: And this is deeper than linguistic ability. Whether you have an accent or not, it's also about how we feel in that language community. [00:11:22] Speaker B: So in your case you spoke Bengali with your family. So does that mean it feels like your home language, like it's closer to your heart? [00:11:30] Speaker C: In a way it is. I feel more in Bengali, like even my name. My family and friends call me Bonu, which is a nickname that comes from the Bengali word for younger sister. I can't really get the feeling of Bonu in any other language. [00:11:53] Speaker B: So where does this leave us? We've said that being a native speaker is not a single thing. [00:11:58] Speaker C: And also that speaking like a so called native does not automatically make you feel that you belong, like with Hashini. [00:12:08] Speaker B: And then there's this other side. Having to learn and use a foreign language and living with the fact that you will never be like a so called native speaker. [00:12:19] Speaker C: Which brings us to part two. Navigating native. Well, we've been talking a lot about my native language. But how is it for you? You grew up speaking English, but you have spent much of your life speaking different foreign languages. But in some ways you must feel most at home in English. [00:12:53] Speaker B: I mean, yes, English is clearly my dominant language. I will never speak Japanese or French or Spanish or any language like I do English. But I am pretty comfortable in those languages. For example, I'm really used to using Japanese in Japan. In fact, I'm usually more comfortable speaking to a Japanese person in Japanese than English. [00:13:19] Speaker C: And why is that? [00:13:21] Speaker B: Well, I guess because I'm often more comfortable in Japanese than most Japanese people are in English. So I actually use less energy speaking Japanese because I don't have to adjust to the limits of their English. [00:13:35] Speaker C: But does it ever feel like your language ability limits you in Japan? [00:13:40] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. But there are two sides. Because I'm a white foreigner, people often assume I don't speak Japanese. And so I get lots of compliments, developments, but that's pretty superficial. On the other hand, in my previous job, for example, I was working completely in Japanese. I was a committee chair. There were lots of politics, tons of reports and meeting minutes. So my Japanese is good, but I simply can't process information or play politics or make strong arguments like A skilled native speaker, which my colleagues were. [00:14:16] Speaker C: And that can feel like boxing with one hand tied behind your back, like you can never fully keep up. It's just really hard to speak a foreign language at a really high level. [00:14:30] Speaker B: I know, and it's one reason I hate it when people say, oh, you live in Japan. I guess you've picked up the language. Well, you don't just pick up a foreign language. I've heard someone say that learning a foreign language is as hard as learning to play the piano, and I think that's true. [00:14:47] Speaker C: I like that comparison. But also, everyone's experience is different, and some people really love using a foreign language. Maybe they even feel more at home in it. [00:15:01] Speaker B: And this is something that podcast team member Yuto Aki has experience with. Let's listen. [00:15:12] Speaker A: I can clearly remember when I first became hooked on English. It was in middle school, but my motivation wasn't academic. It came from my basketball coach, who was from Los Angeles. Through him, English became tied to something meaningful and aspirational for me. As a result, I progressed faster than my classmates and felt increasingly comfortable speaking English by the time I entered high school. During that period, I genuinely wanted to speak English like a native speaker. I've always felt uncomfortable with the idea that being a native speaker necessarily means acquiring a language in early childhood. That would mean that I could never become one. In fact, if that's the criterion, a native speaker is. Is really not something to become in the first place. A key turning point in my language journey was walking into what I thought was just another economics class held in Japanese. But it turned out to be part of an English only program in the economics department. The classroom vibe was completely different. People were constantly interacting, talking about everything from whether the class was good or the tsukemen at a local ramen place. It was new to me, but I found that I fit right in. It felt liberating and made me feel that English had become part of me. It was my native language. [00:16:59] Speaker E: Foreign. [00:17:03] Speaker C: It's really cool how Yuto declares that English is his native language because it feels a part of him, even though he grew up in Japan. [00:17:14] Speaker B: And why not? Of course, his linguistic ability is really amazing, and he did not learn English at home or as a young child. And yet listening to him speak, you would never guess that he grew up speaking Japanese. Yuto's experience is so different from Hexini, who people sometimes think is a native speaker, even though she doesn't think of herself that way. Let's listen. [00:17:42] Speaker D: Parents in Italy want their kids to learn English from a very young age and often hire native English speaking babysitters. So when I was looking for babysitting jobs, I applied for those positions, even though English is technically my second language. People often assumed, however, that I was a native speaker because my accent isn't typically Sri Lankan nor typically Italian. My English is quite mixed, neither proper British nor Standard American, but somehow that in between accent has worked in my favor and I was perceived as a native speaker. This is, of course, a form of accent bias, where sounding a certain way gives you access and status. [00:18:39] Speaker C: Indeed, that's so different from uto. Hashini was perceived as a native speaker of English even though she doesn't consider herself one. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Which brings us to another critique about the whole idea of the native speaker, and that is that how you speak relates to status. In this case, that English is a prestige language. So being a, quote, native speaker makes you better or special. [00:19:10] Speaker C: And this is something I'm very familiar with. In India, English is the language of the educated elite. It's the language of internationalism, and of course, it's associated with the British. [00:19:24] Speaker B: And in India, are you judged by how you speak English? [00:19:29] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. I have been told, for example, that my English sounds bratty, like I somehow sound stuck up. And I think that kind of thing happens in all languages. Certain dialects are considered more local, more working class, or more sophisticated, like received pronunciation in the uk, what people used to call Queen's English. [00:19:57] Speaker B: And you sometimes hear this term linguistic imperialism, which refers to the idea that language use is not neutral. It can be a tool of power. It gives you access to privilege. Like elite schools. People aspire to it like it's superior. [00:20:15] Speaker C: And personally, as an Indian, I have mixed feelings about that. All those critiques are true, but a globalized language provides opportunity too. I don't think Indians that learn English are somehow victims of linguistic imperialism, and I do think it's empowering. But that also doesn't mean that the situation is fair. [00:20:46] Speaker B: And that brings us to the experience of podcast team member Vanessa Eisenberg. She grew up speaking English, but there are complications. Let's take a listen. [00:21:01] Speaker F: English is my native language. I grew up speaking English, and it's the only language I can effectively communicate. In growing up between cultures, my sense of identity was therefore impacted by the absence of language rather than the use of multiple languages. My mother is Chinese, but refused to speak Mandarin as a child. She was being raised in England and wanted to fit in, but she encouraged me to study Mandarin at school. I took classes for 12 years and I scored well on exams. But when interacting with Chinese speakers, I would get confused in even the simplest of conversations. I became disillusioned when at the age of 17, I was informed that my school was incorrect when they said that the tones in Mandarin were not important. I was told that to become any good at Chinese, I would need to start from the beginning. I promptly lost all faith in language learning. It was uncomfortable to realise that I was so ignorant about the language of a culture I claimed to belong to. In Singapore, where I grew up, the way you speak is strongly tied to Singaporean identity. People often use Singaporean Colloquial English or Singlish, which is considered a language in its own right with unique grammatical structures, phonetics and lexemes. It's something you pick up through casual conversation, not through formal instruction. My own accent has always been British, despite not having lived in England until I was 18. Therefore, my accent and lack of understanding of Singlish mark me as an outsider. While I grew up feeling that Singapore was my home. My language use, or lack thereof, sets me apart from the first words I speak. [00:22:53] Speaker C: It's really heartbreaking. She invested so much energy to learn Mandarin in school, but it left her disillusioned. And then again, she grew up in Singapore, but her English sounds British. [00:23:10] Speaker B: And so again, language is so tied to community, to belonging. And this kind of struggle is so common for people growing up between cultures. [00:23:21] Speaker C: And this is something that Hashini has given thought to. As we heard, she speaks Italian like a so called native and speaks English so well that sometimes people assume she's a native speaker. But when it comes to her feelings of community or identity, it's a different story. [00:23:44] Speaker D: These days I speak English more than Italian or Sinhala and I can express myself better in English. So shouldn't I feel more at home in English? Not necessarily. The language I feel most deeply connected to emotionally is Singhle. I'm not always the most fluent or expressive, but I speak it with my parents and they're my home. That connection feels safe and grounds me. So having a native language isn't just about fluency, it's about what that language gives you. And for me, Sinhala gives me comfort, warmth and familiarity. [00:24:41] Speaker C: I really get the feeling that her connection with the family's language feels safe, that it grounds her, especially because she has lived away from Sri Lanka most of her life. [00:24:55] Speaker B: You know, there's one other thing that we haven't talked about and that I'm interested in and that's the linguistic and cultural distance between languages. For example, it was much easier for me to learn Spanish than Japanese. So if the language is more closely related, does it make it easier to feel at home in that language? [00:25:16] Speaker C: And we asked podcast team member Sane Bosma about this. She grew up in the Netherlands and like many Dutch people, speaks excellent English. So what differences does she feel? Let's listen. [00:25:37] Speaker G: Just because you are a so called native speaker doesn't mean that you will magically be comfortable doing everything in that language. I have 11 years of experience teaching in English, mainly legal topics and intercultural communication. Every once in a while, however, I have to teach those subjects in Dutch, which is my first language. But in that context, I find I am self conscious in Dutch, less fluent, and I also find it harder to connect with students. I feel almost like an imposter. It's as though in a professional context, English is my native language. On the other hand, when I socialize at work in Dutch, I once again feel authentic. Sometimes people say you can truly be yourself only in your native language, but people and life spaces are more complicated than that. [00:26:54] Speaker B: Wow. So Sanne feels almost like an imposter teaching in Dutch, even though that's clearly her first language. But again, it's a reminder that being a native is not a single thing and language really does depend on the situation and the people. And that brings us to part three, the Foreigner. So let's talk a bit more about the challenge of learning a foreign language. [00:27:32] Speaker C: And I think that all language learners ask themselves at one point or another, how good can I get? Could I learn to speak like a native speaker? [00:27:43] Speaker B: So is it possible? We asked podcast team member Yuto Aki about this. He is researching language acquisition. Let's hear what he has to say. [00:27:58] Speaker A: Is it possible to gain native like ability in a language you learn after childhood? In a nutshell, the research says yes, possible but unlikely. In other words, the chances are low, but not zero. One hot topic for researchers is the critical or sensitive period. The idea that there is a certain time window when exposure to linguistic input develops into native like linguistic knowledge the way that children do. If you miss that time frame, there will be difficulties or deficits such as having a so called accent, not knowing words or expressions, or not using grammatical features appropriately, like saying I went to store instead of I went to the store. In the 20th century, many researchers assumed that there is a specific learning mechanism dedicated to language which we lose access to as we grow up. More recently, researchers theorized that language acquisition can be better explained by more general learning systems such as declarative and procedural memory. People used to think that this critical period closes early in childhood, perhaps at puberty. But research has shown that for syntax, the threshold seems to be around 17 years old, later than previously assumed. So grammar learning ability seems to be well preserved until this age, although it declines steadily afterwards. There do, however, seem to be exceptions. Aptitude counts. Some people struggle to learn a foreign language beyond childhood, while others are so called good language learners. Certain very rare people may be highly skilled in six, eight, or even ten languages. But does that make them so called native speakers? Do they feel at home in those languages? Have they entered fully into those different cultural worlds? That's harder to say. [00:30:32] Speaker C: Okay, that was pretty technical. But a couple of things stand out for me. One is that research basically agrees with common sense, which is that it's really hard to learn a foreign language and speak it like a native speaker. And there are neurological reasons for this. [00:30:54] Speaker B: And it also confirms the idea that certain people are simply good at foreign languages. My brother James is one of them. Like me, he grew up in California speaking English, but he is mistaken for a native speaker of French and Spanish. He speaks German, Italian, and also Czech, which is a very tough language for English speakers. It's really remarkable. [00:31:18] Speaker C: And we looked into research about how many languages people can learn. It turns out that it's really hard to measure, but the consensus seems to be that even excellent language learners often max out at 6 or 7. Only a few exceptional people get proficient in 10 or 12 languages. And of course, there are something like 6,000 languages in the world. So we all have a long way to go. [00:31:49] Speaker B: So let's just admit that foreign language learning is hard, right? [00:31:54] Speaker C: And let's stick to regular people trying to learn a foreign language. There's this point at which you have to make the transition from book learning or school learning to using the language in real life. And that can be quite difficult. [00:32:13] Speaker B: And this is a challenge that podcast contributor Emre7 is very familiar with. He did well in English in school, but then found that using it in the United States was a different story. [00:32:27] Speaker E: My first motivation to learn English was my uncle, who holds a BA in English Language and Literature. I naively thought that learning English would make me rich like him. In Turkey, language education is based mostly on passing multiple choice exams rather than as something to be used in real life. So that's how I got my start. I learned grammar rules and I was a successful student. Then when I was 20, I got the chance to live and work in the United States. I had to use English in daily life, and I had A shock. I discovered that all of the good scores on grammar tests did not result in successful communication. I particularly remember one of my moments. I was working in a factory where we packed chocolates. I was working with a lady from India. She was filling the chocolate boxes that I was putting together. She was working too fast and I could not keep up with her. So I asked her to slow down a bit. To my surprise, she was furious. She said, you sleep, I work. She called our supervisor over and he asked us about the situation. I tried to explain my concerns with the complex grammar structures I had learned in school, which for me were sophisticated. But for our American supervisor, they were irrelevant and a mess. The Indian lady, on the other hand, explained herself in what I thought was broken English, full of grammar mistakes. But the supervisor understood her totally and decided that she was right. This was a turning point for me in my perception of language. From then on, I tried to focus on the feeling and meaning of the language rather than the form. That's the only way to make language really become part of you. [00:34:47] Speaker C: This sounds so tough, but I think that everyone who has learnt a foreign language has felt this way. [00:34:55] Speaker B: And the great thing about Emre's story is that he's not talking about trying to be a so called native speaker. He's talking about his relationship with English and the world of English speakers. He's an incredible communicator. So it's really not about being a native speaker. [00:35:15] Speaker C: And I think that's my takeaway from all of this. In the end, you can't always help how people perceive you or the way you speak. But you can learn to be yourself no matter what language you speak. [00:35:31] Speaker B: When I think about the difference between being a native speaker and being a good communicator, I think about Kofi Annan. He was the Secretary General of the United nations in the early 2000s. He was born in what is now Ghana and grew up speaking Akan, one of the main indigenous languages. There he learned English in school. Later he learned French. But when I listened to him speak, I forget all about native speaker or non native speaker. He's simply an excellent communicator. Let's listen to a bit of a speech that he gave upon retiring from his post at the un. [00:36:12] Speaker H: Dear friends and colleagues, saying goodbye is never easy. I have spent most of my life working with the United Nations. I feel it is my home. I can think of no other job in the world that would have been so rewarding. And I have met wonderful people along the way and made many friends around the world. It has been an extraordinary privilege to serve as Secretary General these last 10 years. I believe we can all feel proud of what we have done together. Without your support, I could not have achieved what I did or got through some very difficult times. I have often said that you can take the man out of the un, but you can't take the UN out of the man. Thank you once again, my dear friends and colleagues. I will count on you to carry on your indispensable work and I wish you all success in the years ahead. [00:37:34] Speaker C: This is a great clip. I love how he talks about the UN being his home and his colleagues there. Like we've been saying about feeling at home with the language, connecting to others, being part of a community, things that go way beyond whether you are a native speaker. [00:37:54] Speaker B: Well, that's definitely something that we can all keep in mind as we navigate all of our languages. And I think that's about all we have time for today. But let's give some of our sources first of all, if you're interested in the psychology of language learning, how language is embodied, definitely check out episode 53, Language Learning More Than a Code. For a critical view of the term Native speaker, check out the book the Changing Face of the Native Perspectives from Multilingualism and Globalization. And thanks to GII member Emeze Malzer Pap for sharing that with us. She is one of the co authors. Go Ameze. The Deep Culture Experience podcast is sponsored by the Japan Intercultural Institute and NPO dedicated to intercultural education and research. I'm the director of jii. This podcast is completely non commercial, so help us out by leaving a comment on Apple podcasts subscribing on YouTube and you can get in touch@dc podcastapanintercultural.org. [00:39:02] Speaker C: A special thanks to everyone who shared their language stories with us today. Emre7, Yuto Aki, Vanessa Eisenberg, Ashini Madrasinge, and Sane Bozma. And also thanks to team members Leah Thorhild, Liana Harris Carnes, Albert Mangami, Sound Engineer, Robinson Fritz, jii's administrator, Ekumi Fritz and everyone at jii. [00:39:32] Speaker B: And thanks to you Ishita. It has been great exploring language languages with you. [00:39:37] Speaker C: Thank you Joseph. It's always fun talking about languages with you.