Episode 69 - Cultural Chameleons

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Maybe I'm a chameleon in some sense, but saying that makes it sound superficial. After all, a chameleon can change colors, but not its shape or fundamental nature. Adapting deeply to another culture changes you inside too. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Hello, this is Joseph Scholz, and welcome to the Deep Culture Experience, where we explore radical insights into the psychology of intercultural understanding. And I am here with my co conspirator, Ishita Rai, happy to be doing another episode with you. [00:00:45] Speaker C: Hello, Joseph. I'm happy to be here with you again. So the title of this episode is the Cultural Chameleon. And this was inspired by someone you interviewed for your PhD research who called herself a chameleon. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Yeah, that was years ago, but I remember being at a party in Tokyo. I noticed a young Asian woman talking to a group of foreigners in English, telling a funny story, like a typical native speaker of English. And then I saw her speaking in Japanese to a different group of people, and she seemed totally Japanese. Not just speaking the language fluently, but her whole vibe. Her manner was completely different. [00:01:32] Speaker C: And in your book Deep Culture, she's referred to as Yuko. She says me and my brothers and sisters are chameleons. [00:01:43] Speaker B: So she was a third culture kid. She was born in Japan to Japanese parents, grew up in India because her parents moved there for work. She grew up speaking Hindi. She spoke Japanese with her parents and English in school and with her friends. She considers all three of those her native languages. And then in her 20s, she moved to live in Japan for the first time and got a job at a Japanese company. And she really made a point of learning to blend into Japanese society. [00:02:15] Speaker C: And that couldn't be easy. Right? She had a Japanese passport, but she had been living her whole life outside of Japan. [00:02:25] Speaker B: She really got into being local. I remember her saying that it took her three years to learn how to properly slurp ramen. She got a job with a very traditional Japanese company and did things like pouring tea, playing the role of the young female employee. So she really went deep. And she was proud of the fact that many of her Japanese colleagues didn't realize that she could speak English or that she had grown up abroad. [00:02:53] Speaker C: So I am beginning to see how she was like a chameleon. She wanted to fit in. And I'm impressed by how intentional she was. But I also wonder, how did she feel about being true to herself? Did she feel that she had to hide parts of her identity? [00:03:13] Speaker B: And I did ask her about that. She didn't seem to feel conflicted. She felt that being a chameleon was her true nature. [00:03:21] Speaker C: Wow, that sounds really cool, but also a bit extreme. And all of this got us wondering, what's it like to be adapted really deeply to more than one culture? And it sounds psychologically hard. For example, how does it affect your identity? Does it create inner conflict? [00:03:46] Speaker B: And how rare is someone like Yuko? Do you have to grow up bilingual and bicultural to be a cultural chameleon? [00:03:54] Speaker C: So in this episode, we will explore all that and hear from the podcast team about their chameleon experiences, and we will dig into the psychology of the cultural chameleon. [00:04:09] Speaker B: And that brings us to part one, chameleons and humans. So before we start talking about adapting to a new culture, let us think through what it means to compare humans to real chameleons, and then let's see if the metaphor holds up. [00:04:35] Speaker C: That sounds like fun. We are comparing humans who change their behavior to fit into a foreign setting to chameleons who change the color of their skin to fit into their environment. [00:04:50] Speaker B: And I've been looking into this. And chameleons adjust patterns to blend in. Like they use greens that resemble leaves or browns that resemble tree bark. And can I say I was really fascinated by the biological mechanism involved. There are these tiny crystals in a chameleon skin that refract different frequencies of light depending on how they are spaced. And chameleons can adjust that spacing. [00:05:21] Speaker C: And of course, chameleons evolved that ability because it helped their survival. It was an evolutionary advantage. So one way to say it is that changing skin color is in a chameleon's nature. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Yes. And of course, you find adaptations like that in other animals as well. I've learned, for example, that an octopus is even better at changing colors than a chameleon. [00:05:49] Speaker C: Oh, wow. So we could have called this episode the cultural octopus. [00:05:56] Speaker D: Yes. [00:05:57] Speaker B: And in fact, that's. An octopus can instantly change colors to copy its background, although it evolved a very different biological mechanism to do so. And if you don't mind a little detour, it's really fascinating. [00:06:11] Speaker C: Let's go for it. Let's learn about octopus biology. [00:06:16] Speaker B: So a chameleon has tiny crystals in its skin which refract light in different ways. But an octopus has this multi layered structure. It has pigment sacs that become visible when they're stretched out. So they're like thousands of tiny umbrellas that can open or close to reveal the pigment. But underneath that, there's another layer of cells called iridophores, which reflect iridescent light in a similar way to a peacock's feathers and then another layer of cells which scatters light. And then there are special muscles that can contract and change the shape of the skin. So an octopus can change the texture and the color of its skin so it can look like coral or sand, whatever. [00:07:03] Speaker C: Those are really complex structures. And again, this must have involved a very long evolutionary process, which means that being able to camouflage yourself has a lot of survival value. But wait, we talk about a cultural chameleon. Is that camouflage? Camouflage is to avoid predators. But cultural chameleons aren't changing their behavior to avoid predators. [00:07:36] Speaker B: No, I agree. And in that sense, the metaphor kind of breaks down. But here's the thing. Camouflage isn't the only reason, and maybe not even the main reason that chameleons change the color of their skin. It's. It's also a social signal, like to show aggression or to attract a mate. [00:07:53] Speaker C: So changing colors is not just a way to hide. It can be a way to express yourself. So let's relate this back to Yuko. Yuko her as saying, the reason you become a chameleon, you want to fit in and you want to get along. So you try hard. A lot of third culture kids try to get along and not be too different. [00:08:29] Speaker B: But you know, that particular quote doesn't capture the whole picture because Yuko also talked about choosing when and how to act in order to express herself. Like this is something else she said. And she's talking about how she expresses herself at work. It's a give and take. I can be Japanese when the situation asks for it. Since my name is Japanese, they expect a very submissive person. The salespeople think they can get their way with me because I'm young, but I can yell when I want to or speak up when I want to when the situation calls for it. But at the same time, it doesn't mean that I don't know what the manners are. I just choose. [00:09:13] Speaker C: What a rich quote. And it really captures the flexibility, but also the tension of being a cultural bridge person. What I find empowering is when she says, I just choose. She's not passively going along. And I think that's true of cultural bridge people. Completely fitting in is not the ultimate goal. [00:09:39] Speaker B: So maybe the chameleon or the octopus, whatever. The metaphor still does work. We change colors to blend in to avoid predators, so to speak. But we also express ourselves through our changing colors. Except that we are social primates. We have to get along, but we also have our individual needs. [00:10:01] Speaker C: And this is a great point. We have to fit in. But we have to find our place in that group. And because we are social primates, we are extremely sensitive to our social environment. Wanting to fit in is an evolutionary impulse. It's a survival instinct. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Right. Because if you're rejected by the group, if you're abandoned by your tribe and you are by yourself in the forest, basically, then you get eaten by wild animals, you die. [00:10:32] Speaker C: Exactly. And the modern equivalent is that you show up at a party in a T shirt and everyone else is in a tuxedo. Disaster. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Exactly. But there's something else. When I'm thinking about this as an American, blending in doesn't always sound attractive. There's this idea that you need to express your individual self. I have asked a group of American students. Raise your hand if you feel that you are unique. And every hand goes up. [00:11:03] Speaker C: But the fact that all the hands go up is also a kind of fitting in. Right. In the end, human beings are sensitive to the people around us, and we have a strong need to be a part of the group. Even Americans. [00:11:20] Speaker B: I love that. Even Americans. That reminds me of a famous clip from an American television program from when I was a kid called Candid Camera. And they put people in unusual or embarrassing situations, and then they secretly filmed their reactions. There was a famous episode where they filmed someone that gets into an elevator, but they discover that everyone else in the elevator is facing the rear of the elevator. And of course, those people are all in on the joke. But the question is, how does the person who enters the elevator react? Will they go along and turn around to face the back also, just because everyone else is, or will they maintain their individuality? Will they ask what's going on? And so we found an original clip from this program. Let's take a listen. [00:12:17] Speaker E: The gentleman in the elevator now is a Candid star. These folks who are entering, the man with a white shirt, the lady with a trench coat, and subsequently one other member of our staff will face the rear. And you'll see how this man in the trench coat. Tries to maintain his individuality. But little by little, He looks at his wife. Watch. But he's really making an excuse for turning just a little bit more to the wall. Now we'll try it once again. Here's the candid subject. Here comes the Candid Camera staff, three of them at least. And this man has apparently been in groups. Here's a fella with his hat on in the elevator. First he makes a full turn to the rear, and Charlie closes the door. A moment later, we'll open the door, everybody's changed positions. [00:14:09] Speaker B: And so the audience is laughing because the subjects absolutely do face the back because everyone else is doing it. And then they do variations with different subjects. Like, first they're facing the back, and then everyone shifts to facing the side, and the subject goes along. And then there's one where everyone takes off their hat, and then the subject does, too. [00:14:32] Speaker C: There's a lot of social psychology research which confirms this basic tendency, like people giving an answer to a question they know is wrong because everyone else does. And so the point is, human beings naturally want to fit in. [00:14:51] Speaker B: And I think anyone who's been to a foreign country knows this. It can be the smallest of things. I remember the very first time I went to Paris. I walked into a restaurant, and then I found I didn't know if I should wait to be seated or should I find a table myself. And I felt like paralyzed. I was afraid to do something wrong. [00:15:11] Speaker C: Oh, I totally feel this. Living in Japan, Even with really small things like the timing for when I stand up to get off the train at the next stop, the Japanese are champions at standing up just at the right moment and getting off without bothering anyone else. I have spent months trying to do that. I fail every time, but I keep trying. [00:15:39] Speaker B: I love that. But then there's the opposite, too, right? There is a special thrill when we do fit in or when we're part [00:15:46] Speaker C: of the group, and that's something we feel strongly in the story from podcast team member Sane Bozma. Let's listen. [00:15:59] Speaker D: When I was about 22 years old, I joined my friend who is originally from Bosnia at a Bosnian party in the Netherlands. There was a big ballroom with tables and chairs along the sides and also a big dance floor in the middle. Musicians were on stage, and Bosnian music was pouring from the speakers. People were dancing, and it was a mix of young and old. I picked up the dance moves pretty quickly and even got put in front of the line. I had fun and felt like I belonged there. At one point, I went to the bar to get a drink for my friend and me, and I overheard two men talking in Dutch, wondering whether I was Bosnian. So one turned to me and asked a question in Bosnian. I guess it was, are you Bosnian? And so I answered, no, I am not, in Dutch. They were so confused. Apparently I looked sufficiently Bosnian. I was dancing Bosnian dances. I had understood the question, so I must be Bosnian. They simply did not believe me when I said I was Dutch. It was a small thing, but I felt quite proud. I love the idea of Being part of the group, even if it wasn't really true. These days, my partner, who is Armenian, jokes that this would never be possible as an Armenian party. In Armenia, women average less than 1 meter 60 and I am 1 meter 84. So, so much for blending in there. [00:17:44] Speaker B: I can so easily imagine Sanne dancing her heart out at a Bosnian party. And, yeah, it could be really fun to be mistaken for an insider like that. [00:17:55] Speaker C: I can totally relate to that. I'm learning Japanese, and I'm absolutely thrilled when a Japanese friend unconsciously switches to Japanese when talking to me. [00:18:07] Speaker B: But then the question is, is that the same feeling as being a cultural chameleon? Sanne was thrilled to be mistaken for a Bosnian. Does that mean Yuko was thrilled to be switching languages at that party or to be blending in at work? [00:18:23] Speaker C: And that's really a tricky question, isn't it? Because fitting into a new culture can be really rewarding. We make friends, we learn how things work. So changing our colors, like a chameleon, can be a great thing. But in the end, we also have to find ways to express our individuality. And Saner did not face that at the party. That's a deeper process. [00:18:51] Speaker B: And that brings us to part two. Blend but not break. [00:19:05] Speaker C: So we were saying that unlike chameleons or octopuses, humans are social primates. And this means that we are not just avoiding predators. When we change our colors, we want to connect with other people, which is [00:19:22] Speaker B: why it was so fun for Sane to fit in at that party. That's a positive side of trying to fit in. But the flip side is that not. Not fitting in can be really stressful. [00:19:35] Speaker C: So one big takeaway is that fitting into another culture is not psychologically neutral. It's not just changing behaviors. It can cut deeper. It raises questions about who you are [00:19:50] Speaker B: and this tension between wanting to fit in and also expressing your individual self. This is something that podcast team member Hashini Madurasinge has given a lot of thought to. She was born in Sri Lanka and lived there as a child, but then moved to Italy at 10 and had to quickly adjust to a whole new life, new language, new culture. Let's hear what she has to say. [00:20:19] Speaker F: In many ways, I'm a cultural chameleon, but I'm not entirely sure if I aspire to be one. Growing up, I wanted to be a chameleon whenever I managed to fit in. Talk like my peers, think like them, laugh at the same things. It felt really good as a kid. You want to belong. So those moments felt like wins to me. But now, looking back, they also represent some of my worst chameleon moments. I felt like I had to fit in in order to be accepted. My motivation didn't always come from a genuine place. I wanted to avoid standing out, avoid feeling foreign, and avoid being reminded that I was different. That part sits differently with me now. It's one thing to adapt because it genuinely reflects who you are and the choices you make, but it's something else to adapt because you feel like you have no choice. Growing up across cultures made that line very blurry for me. Sometimes. To me, the word chameleon immediately brings out a negative connotation that I'm becoming something I'm not just to fit in. At this stage in my life, I'm trying to move away from that idea. At the same time, being a cultural chameleon has allowed me to move between different life spaces and connect with different people. So it's complicated. [00:22:10] Speaker C: I find Hashini's story really powerful. This is much more complex than the idea of a cultural chameleon who can fit in perfectly because trying too hard to adapt to others can feel inauthentic. [00:22:26] Speaker B: And this also relates to what Yuko was saying about choosing when to speak up. Hashini moved to Sri Lanka as a child with her family. She had no choice in that, so she was forced to adapt to survive. So no wonder. It's complicated. [00:22:42] Speaker C: And let's state the obvious. Even if you really wanted to fit in and tried hard, it is still not easy and it has consequences. [00:22:52] Speaker B: And this is something that podcast team member Vanessa Eisenberg has experienced. She grew up in Singapore and then went to England for university, and she really wanted to fit in. Let's listen. [00:23:07] Speaker G: When I first moved to England for university, I thought it would be easy to blend in, because while I had been raised in Singapore, it was in a culturally British environment. I wanted to avoid certain stereotypes, so I would often tell other students I was from London, my parents had lived in London and I would visit relatives there every summer, so it almost felt true. I quickly realised, however, that this was more complicated than it seemed. People immediately asked what part of London should I say? In the west, where I would stay every summer, or southeast, where my parents had lived? Even with friends who knew I had grown up in Singapore, I found myself omitting certain things. But there was a turning point. A friend visited me in Singapore and confronted me, saying that I had lied to her about my upbringing. It was true I had avoided talking about things that might make it harder for her to relate to me, I was suddenly struck by my inauthenticity. I had thought of all of this as minor lies of omission, but they were lies all the same, and I was hiding important parts of myself. Now I am finally learning to be more open. I found that it helps me discover common ground more quickly or to connect despite difference. Hexini says she views being a chameleon as something negative that fascinates me. I envy people that can blend in that well. It shows a deep cultural understanding. In my case, I struggled with a feeling of belonging in Singapore because I couldn't code switch into a Singaporean communication style. Still, Hashini and I share something important. However we feel about being a chameleon, we are both finding a road to authenticity. [00:25:14] Speaker C: I really felt sorry for Vanessa. Like having your friend tell you that you had been lying about your background, but really you simply don't want to stand out. That's a tough position to be in. [00:25:30] Speaker B: And she says she's envious of someone like Hashini who manages to adapt at a deep level. But that's not easy to do either. [00:25:39] Speaker C: And both Hashini's and Vanessa's stories come back to feeling authentic, finding a way to be true to yourself even as you are living between different cultural worlds. [00:25:52] Speaker B: And both of them had to adapt as children. They had no choice. So they struggled to figure out how to express themselves as individuals. [00:26:01] Speaker C: But choosing to adapt is a very different experience. I have decided to change myself and form new connections. Feels so different from you have to fit in in order to survive. [00:26:16] Speaker B: And we can really feel that in the story of team member Yuto Aki. He grew up in Japan but got hooked on learning English in high school. He was inspired by his Japanese basketball coach. He worked really hard at mastering English, and in fact, soon he's going to start a doctoral program in the United States in language acquisition. Go uto. [00:26:40] Speaker C: I have to say, Yuto's communication in English is extremely natural. But of course, he's a native Japanese speaker who's completely comfortable in Japan, so he can really switch between these different worlds. But this is something he chose and he doesn't identify with being a cultural chameleon. Let's listen. [00:27:08] Speaker H: I'm not a cultural chameleon. I see myself as someone with two authentic cultural homes. I am just as connected to Kansai, Ben and Manzai comedy through my family as I am to a Californian accent and American stand up through my friends. They aren't different masks I put on. They are simply different parts of who I am. This seamless identity was shaped by two security and intentionality. Learning English never required relinquishing my Japanese identity. My native language and culture remained secure. Also, my bilingual journey was quite intentional. Recognizing early on that English gave me a sense of liberation, I actively steered my life toward it. Choosing a US exchange program, selecting a university campus with a big English speaking community. I acquired English on my own terms, so I didn't lose my roots. Now I use both with a sense of being the real me. [00:28:33] Speaker C: I love how Yuto talks about his seamless identity. He does not feel inner conflict like Hashini and Vanessa do. He even says that learning English gave him a sense of liberation. [00:28:49] Speaker B: So instead of feeling like he was forced to choose between two versions of himself, he feels like he expanded a single self, different parts of who he is. [00:29:01] Speaker C: So let's recap a little bit. We all want to fit in, and it can be really fun when we are able to fit in in a foreign situation. But if we are forced to adapt, it's a very different situation. You can feel inauthentic like Hashini, or unsure of yourself like Vanessa. But if you choose to adapt, then it can be really rewarding, like with Yuto. [00:29:28] Speaker B: But I think Yuto is also not typical. For most people, adapting deeply to another culture takes enorm effort. It can be super stressful. But there are people who choose to take on that challenge, like podcast team member Leah Thorhild. Liana Harskarnes. [00:29:47] Speaker C: Leah grew up in Norway, but then lived and worked in the Philippines for years. A really different cultural world. She made enormous efforts to learn Tagalog, make friends, and function professionally in the Philippines. So does she feel like a cultural chameleon? Let's listen. [00:30:11] Speaker A: Maybe I'm a chameleon in some sense, but saying that makes it sound superficial. After all, a chameleon can change colors, but not its shape or fundamental nature. Adapting deeply to another culture changes you inside too. When I have succeeded, I have felt both happy and drained. Learning to navigate Filipino culture was a long, demanding and very rewarding process. I'm someone who wants to build rapport with people who are different from me. I felt good about blending in when it has given me friendships or when I have been part of a group. It felt like my efforts, which others seldom noticed, had paid off. There were real challenges. For example, things that felt ethically wrong to me, but which were common in the Philippines, like spanking children. How do you adjust your sense of right and wrong? My worst chameleon experience was reverse culture shock. Yes, I knew how to fit in back in Norway. But it felt like I had to abandon parts of myself that I had spent years creating. It felt limiting and sad. Chameleons seemed to blend in effortlessly. It's not that easy for me. But adapting is a deep part of the my nature. It has stretched my authentic self, made it more complex. And I'm very happy about that. [00:32:04] Speaker B: I'd love the idea that a chameleon can change colors, but not its fundamental nature, that adapting deeply changes you inside as well. [00:32:15] Speaker C: One thing that resonated with me is that stretching your sense of right and wrong is really challenging. You know that you want to respect other cultural values, but some things just feel wrong, and that creates inner conflict. [00:32:32] Speaker B: I also like how she says that adapting is a deep part of her nature, that it made her sense of self more complex, and she's happy about that. [00:32:42] Speaker C: And this raises one more issue. We've been talking about whether being a cultural chameleon can go along with being authentic, with expressing your true self. But there's a catch. Not everyone experiences the self as being a single thing. And that's cultural too. [00:33:02] Speaker B: And that brings us to part three. I am we. So far, we've been talking about being a chameleon and identity in a single way. Like, there's an authentic self inside each of us that has to be expressed. But the way that we experience the self is also cultural. [00:33:30] Speaker C: For example, when you grow up in a more individualistic society, you tend to feel that your inner qualities are what make you who you are, your essential nature or character. But in more enmeshed societies, identity can be experienced in a very different way. [00:33:51] Speaker B: Researchers talk about this in terms of independent construal of self versus interdependent construal of self. And this is an idea originally proposed by Shinobu Kitayama and Hazel Marcus. And we talked about this way back in episode 22, Culture and the Self. [00:34:08] Speaker F: Effy. [00:34:09] Speaker C: So an independent construal of self is the feeling that there's a single authentic self inside us. But an interdependent sense of self is experienced, like being a node in a network of relationships. You are not independent of others. You feel almost like one part of a larger body. [00:34:30] Speaker B: Well, I could really feel this more interdependent sense of self in how Albert talked about his sense of identity. He doesn't feel that changing how you interact with others makes you inauthentic. But the way he explains it is very different from Yuto. He ties his feelings of self to Hunhu, a cultural value you find, especially in Zimbabwe. Let's hear what Albert has to say. [00:34:59] Speaker I: The other day, a Dutch colleague saw me outside of work for the first time in the presence of other southern Africans. She said she almost did not recognize me. I was laughing with a friend, the sort of laugh that black and African cultures seem to have in common. It's communal and dramatic. I can imagine that for my colleague, who has a rural Dutch background, it could be quite a lot. She only realized that she knew me when she heard someone call out my name. When she greeted me, I immediately lowered the energy to match what could be appropriate to her cultural context. We all adjust to others. To a child, to the doctor at work, with friends. We are constantly relating ourselves to other people's experiences. We have a lens of expression, tone, physicality, and energy that we adjust so people can see us in a way that matters. So the me who is laughing out loud with my African friends is just as authentic as the reserved me with a Dutch friend on a train. My thinking about this is shaped by hunu, which includes the idea that there is no self without the other, no you unless you are perceived. We are a world of mirrors, meaning that our humanity is not something that we possess individually. We are shaped by our relationship with others. We make meaning from what we can see of ourselves, others. So I don't think of myself as a cultural chameleon. It would be more accurate to say cultural clay. I changed not to hide myself, but to be seen and to relate. [00:37:03] Speaker B: I love the way Albert says our humanity is not something we possess individually. It is so different from this individualistic idea that each person has this single, essential self inside them. [00:37:18] Speaker C: I love the line, I change not to hide myself, but to be seen and to relate. This really stands the chameleon metaphor on its head. [00:37:29] Speaker B: But then hearing Albert's experience raised a new question for me. We said that an interdependent self feels more connected to the people around you, like a node in a network. So does that mean that intercultural understanding is easier because you don't experience yourself as so separate from others? [00:37:51] Speaker C: That's a really deep question. And here is how it feels to me. Let's say someone feels very interconnected with their friends and family and others in their community. In a perfect world, they will also be open to feeling that way with strangers or people from a different community. [00:38:14] Speaker B: But of course, it's not a perfect world. And the flip side of a collective sense of self is that there's a strong in group bias. [00:38:23] Speaker C: And that is true. So what happens is people from a different community, different faith, different ethnicity, and can feel very different. It reminds me that in Bengali, sentences beginning with either I or we have the same verb conjugation, but there are three different ways to say you, each with a different verb conjugation. So we and I are very similar. Us and them is very different. [00:38:58] Speaker B: In Japanese, the word for self, jibun, literally means one piece of the whole. So we and I is similar. And then there are lots of words like nakama, which emphasize this in group, out group distinction. [00:39:12] Speaker C: So having a more interdependent self doesn't necessarily make intercultural understanding easier. But let's flip that on its head. What about someone with an independent sense of self? They see others as individuals, but then you may not realize how deep cultural difference goes. [00:39:36] Speaker B: So coming back to Albert, it seems like he is managing to do both, feeling interconnected with his African friends, but also connecting individually with his colleagues. And I think that's rare. Leah has also managed something that's not easy. She grew up in a pretty individualist society in Norway, but then learned to fit into a pretty interdependent place, the Philippines. [00:40:02] Speaker C: And all of this also raises one other question for me. What's the difference between someone like Yuko or Hashini, who grew up in a bilingual or multilingual context, and someone like Leah, or you, Joseph, for that matter, who had to adapt more from scratch? [00:40:23] Speaker B: You know, I used to be envious of people who grew up with multiple languages, like, oh, they didn't have to work at it like I did. But I don't really see things that way anymore. A lot of students I know who grew up internationally do struggle with their sense of identity. They can switch languages. They can adapt to really well. They know how to be a chameleon. But the harder thing is to feel connected, to feel authentic. When you choose to learn a language and adapt like Leah did, or like I have done in Japan, you really have to make huge efforts, but at the same time, it really feels valuable and you don't question it so much. [00:41:01] Speaker C: And this is something that language teachers can keep in mind. Ultimately, learning a new language involves a deep process of adaptation. You need to find new ways to relate to people. And this is something that podcast team member Rob Fritz tries to communicate to his students. Let's listen. [00:41:26] Speaker J: I sometimes ask students to visualize two chameleons meeting. One is blue and one is red. If they want to communicate successfully, what color should they become? Some say one should adapt completely to the other. Some say they should Both become purple. Others suggest creating an entirely new colour like a rainbow. What I find interesting is that when students start thinking about what would be involved in changing their colors, the discussion quickly moves beyond language and culture. They begin talking about values, personality, self expression and assumptions. The question becomes less about how do I speak to this person? And more about how do we create understanding together? At the same time, I think the metaphor has limitations. A chameleon can imply that successful intercultural communication means changing yourself to match the environment. Taken too far, it can suggest that people should suppress parts of themselves in order to fit in. For me, the most useful version of the metaphor is two chameleons creating a new colour together. This shifts the focus from adaptation to co creation. So rather than asking how can I become like them? Students can ask what can we create together that neither of us could create alone. [00:43:14] Speaker C: That is so beautiful? The goal is not to blend in. It is to create something new. [00:43:22] Speaker B: So Ishito, what's your takeaway from all of this? [00:43:25] Speaker C: That adapting to another culture doesn't have to mean that there are pieces of you that don't fit together. That you can have a different self, an expanded self, maybe even an awkward self, but it can be a complete self. How about you Joseph? [00:43:46] Speaker B: Well, it's easy to overlook how effortful adapting to another culture is. And a lot of time people don't know notice how hard you're trying. So I just want to say to all our cultural chameleon listeners, we get it. It's hard, but it is an incredible gift to be able to do so. And when you make choices about how to express yourself, regardless of how you grow up, you will have a stronger sense of who you are. And that's about all we have time for today. If you want to watch the elevator video, look on YouTube for Candid Camera Face to Rear for research into people giving wrong answers because others did. Check out the article Opinions and social pressure and that's in Scientific American. The Deep Culture Experience podcast is sponsored by the Japan Intercultural Institute, an NPO dedicated to intercultural education and research. I am the director of jii. Also, you should know that Ishita and I will be offering the foundation module for the Deep Culture Approach Masterclass series this fall. It's a blended learning experience that we facilitate directly. We go deep into the psychology of intercultural understanding. Space is limited. You can sign up at the website of the Japan Intercultural Institute and you can get in touch@dc podcast japan intercourse cultural.org [00:45:13] Speaker C: A special thanks to podcast team members Vanessa Eisenberg, Hashini, Madrasinge, Sane, Bozma, Leah, Torhild, Liana, Hars, Karnas, Yuto, Aki, Albert, Mangami, Robinson, Fritz for sharing their cultural chameleon stories with us. And thanks to Emre7 and Ikumi Fritz and everyone at JII. [00:45:38] Speaker B: And thanks to you, Ishita and. Hey, everyone, join us in the masterclass. [00:45:43] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Joseph. It was another fun episode.